29 replies to this topic

[Darthus]

I was very down on this game until very recently. I was in the closed beta for 10 months and every time I played it I was just turned away by the "WoWness" of it. It's true, this game uses WoW as a foundation. It's like they sat down and said, "Ok, let's make WoW, but then add some stuff to it to hopefully improve it". Below are the significant ways I think they've improved on the WoW formula.

4 significant ways to get XP (WoW, for the most part only had questing and grinding)

Public Quests
Quests
Open world "skirmish" RvR
Scenarios

Things that are normally reserved for late game are there from the start:

Mini-Raids (Public Quests)
RvR (Open world, skirmish, capture areas)
Battlegrounds

Multiple simultaneous methods of advancement (all related to overall power):

Renown
Influence
XP

Multiple methods of customization:

Items
Masteries
Tactics
Renown points

Ways to play with other people without any need for explicit coordination/communication:

Scenarios
Public Quests
Open Parties
Open world RvR

Basically, it's an even more streamlined version of WoW if you can believe it. The emphasis is on constantly providing different ways of having fun from the start so you don't get bored, which was always my problem with MMOs in general. It always inevitably felt like grinding. Grinding is basically doing something you don't enjoy doing in order to get to some goal. Here, you have multiple options at any given time that are all effective ways to advance. And you'll often stumble on one while trying to do another. It just constantly feels like the game is handing you fun things to do and interaction without you having to work for the fun in other games. And as I mentioned above, where most MMOs hold a lot of the "fun" gameplay until the end of the game, WAR is designed so that you're doing most of that stuff from the start. Also, you always feel like you're hitting multiple birds with one stone. You're getting xp, renown and items from Scenarios. You're getting XP, influence and items from public quests, etc.

I don't think characterizing this as WoW makes sense. It's WoW at its base functionality and gameplay, but with everything I mentioned above. Also, characterizing it as DAoC is simplistic. Sure, RvR, keep warfare and battlegrounds from level 1 are in DAoC, but it's really a synergy of some of the things DAoC brought in terms of PvP with the base accessible gameplay of WoW and then really looking at ways to make the entire experience from 1-40 more fun through the entire advancement curve.

Comments?

[WinnebagoWarrior]

I was very down on this game until very recently. I was in the closed beta for 10 months and every time I played it I was just turned away by the "WoWness" of it. It's true, this game uses WoW as a foundation. It's like they sat down and said, "Ok, let's make WoW, but then add some stuff to it to hopefully improve it". Below are the significant ways I think they've improved on the WoW formula.

4 significant ways to get XP (WoW, for the most part only had questing and grinding)

Public Quests
Quests
Open world "skirmish" RvR
Scenarios

Things that are normally reserved for late game are there from the start:

Mini-Raids (Public Quests)
RvR (Open world, skirmish, capture areas)
Battlegrounds

Multiple simultaneous methods of advancement (all related to overall power):

Renown
Influence
XP

Multiple methods of customization:

Items
Masteries
Tactics
Renown points

Ways to play with other people without any need for explicit coordination/communication:

Scenarios
Public Quests
Open Parties
Open world RvR

Basically, it's an even more streamlined version of WoW if you can believe it. The emphasis is on constantly providing different ways of having fun from the start so you don't get bored, which was always my problem with MMOs in general. It always inevitably felt like grinding. Grinding is basically doing something you don't enjoy doing in order to get to some goal. Here, you have multiple options at any given time that are all effective ways to advance. And you'll often stumble on one while trying to do another. It just constantly feels like the game is handing you fun things to do and interaction without you having to work for the fun in other games. And as I mentioned above, where most MMOs hold a lot of the "fun" gameplay until the end of the game, WAR is designed so that you're doing most of that stuff from the start. Also, you always feel like you're hitting multiple birds with one stone. You're getting xp, renown and items from Scenarios. You're getting XP, influence and items from public quests, etc.

I don't think characterizing this as WoW makes sense. It's WoW at its base functionality and gameplay, but with everything I mentioned above. Also, characterizing it as DAoC is simplistic. Sure, RvR, keep warfare and battlegrounds from level 1 are in DAoC, but it's really a synergy of some of the things DAoC brought in terms of PvP with the base accessible gameplay of WoW and then really looking at ways to make the entire experience from 1-40 more fun through the entire advancement curve.

Comments?

I like a lot of what I hear about WAR, so this helps. I might get into it yet, I know a lot of people who are playing it but I am still on the fence. I am afraid its going to turn out like AoC where I like it but no one else does and now the severs are empty.

[bonedead]

First off, I am glad you finally said something. I was about to make a big post about how mad I am that no one fucking posts here because it isn't as fuckin pretty as it used to be (graphikz r impurtant!) and you were at the top of my list.

Aside from that, I'm glad you played it and wrote that so I didn't have to play it and find out. Now I am glad. Glad for Mythic, who deserves it imo. Glad for myself, because when I finally do play it in a year it will be even more awesome. But most importantly, I am glad for your Mr. Darphus. I hope you found a game where you can make it to max level without really feeling pressured to or forced to ("because the game doesn't start until max level!!11").

I didn't want to play WHO because I didn't want to be let down, I'm fucking tired of being let down. But with this post, good sir Darthus, you have added a large flash of hope in my future.

I'm so happy for Mythic. They pulled a WoW and I love it.

[Darthus]

Yeah, sorry I haven't posted in a while guys. The site transition kind of coincided with me taking a hiatus from MMOs after coming off of AoC. There's a part of me that hopes AoC will be a unique experience worth playing (with the notoriety etc) in a while, but I admit that as an MMO goes, AoC is pretty shoddy. The level of quality is very uneven, the actual minute to minute gameplay doesn't really add anything new to MMOs and still feels like a grind. The extreme lack of content doesn't help. I hear they're going to do a "come back for free" program in early 2009, which implies that's when they think it might be a game worth playing.

But yeah, I don't know if I'll reach max level in this one. I've kind of come to grips with the fact that I play MMOs until they consistently stop being fun. That was level 42 in WoW when it became much more of a grind, and 53 in AoC when the content entirely thinned out.

WAR overall exudes a very good feeling of completeness and polish. I'm hoping that what I mentioned above (the emphasis on providing consistent and varied means of fun) will keep things interesting. We'll see, but so far I think it's fair to say I'm about as into this as I was into WoW when it came out, if not moreso. I'm only level 11, but considering max level is 40, I've gotten a good amount of exposure to everything but keep warfare and general endgame content.

Public quests are actually a strong highpoint for me. I wrote them off as a gimmick originally, but they're quite significant. You stumble across them while doing your normal activities, so it's nearly always a pleasant surprise. In addition, it's a great method of getting you to work with other people without you even meaning to. It both gives you influence for each public quest goal you complete and your overall contribution contributes to your chance to get a better "loot bag" at the end of the event. The loot bag is a cool idea in that it has like 10 items in it and you choose which one you want. The events do feel pretty climactic as things go on and people come together to help with the harder goals, so it does give a feeling of a mini-Raid.

The only downside of these is that you might do the first couple phases of the event to realize that there are not nearly enough people in the area to complete it. It'd be nice to have some indicator of how many people are working on the PQ so you can know whether it's worth it to join up.

[mven]

There are a lot of things I like about Warhammer and probably just as many things that really annoy me. For example I like PQs but the loot system for them is terrible and wasteful. There is no way to see what loot you are getting and over half the time it is complete crap. Once you win a bag you are stuck with it. So if you do a PQ 2-3 times in a row and win a green bag every time 2 of those times someone else you are grouped with might have been able to use the loot but they are SoL because you can't opt out of the loot, give them the bag, or give them the loot from the bag. This may seem like a fairly minor bitch until you take into account that Mythic used the PQ mechanic for like almost everything in the game. Keeps are also PQs and when you kill the keep lord the same little PQ bag loot system is used to pass out loot. When you start doing the larger instanced dungeons like Mt Gunbad and later Bastion Stair guess what? That's right they are filled with PQ style encounters and influence to earn to progress.

If you like BG style PvP you will love this game. You can do nothing but scenario after scenario after scenario for all eternity to advance. If you don't have to have the best of the best gear you can use renown gear and drops from players all the way up. There is no need to kill a single NPC ever if all you want to do is level and get more clothes. Unfortunately I think this really takes away from the world PvP. Scenarios are "guaranteed" renown and experience whereas world PVP is more hit or miss. Since world pvp is hit or miss more people go to scens which means world pvp becomes even more hit or miss so more people go to scens etc etc etc etc etc. I'm sure getting rid of the scens would probably have a negative impact on the number of people playing because it's obviously much more casual friendly it just sucks that thus far world PvP seems much less popular.

I haven't played much at all this past week though I don't think I am really losing interest in the game yet so much as the fact that RL is just sucking.
I have noticed a lot more people in T4 the last time I logged on and while most of them suck complete ass and I wish they had stayed in T3 I am hoping eventually more people will be hitting mid 30s upper 40s and there will be some more serious world PvP going on. Right now the game is 100% geared to benefit whichever side has the most players because of the mechanic that requires heavy PvE/scens to accomplish PvP goals. Order will never take a zone and thus never take a city because of this mechanic on my server. I don't even think it's possible. Hopefully they will fix this also. La de da.

[Darthus]

I've found renown gear to be pretty awesome. I got a purple pair of gloves from getting the best bag in a PQ and it was only slightly better than my current renown gear.

I haven't run into a problem with the bag thing. Not making them bind on pickup would create issues with the auction house or farming loot for people who aren't participating. I do agree you should be able to "opt out" if you don't want the bag, but in general with PQs, if you're not interested in the loot, why are you there?

I agree that the Scenarios are the main focus right now, but I don't think that's intentional. Evidence is that they just put in a patch to increase world PvP XP by 50% and said they're going to continue tweaking it. They also put up a poll recently asking if people wanted a server type with less Scenarios, but only 23% of people said they did. So I think it's something that will hopefull balance out, as the world PvP is pretty fun. It reminds me conceptually of Planetside, except you can actually take over the other side's main city instead of just a constant back and forth with no end.

[mven]

Did you play on a PvP server or the normal one?

[Darthus]

Normal, roleplay even. I know, weird huh? I just figured there's enough pvp in the core rule set if I want it, without rank 40s ganking me. Why?

[Giiizmo]

With how shoddy the mechanisms on open servers are, I'll probably be rolling on a core RP server as well. While not being able to attack (or be attacked by) a player I see will suck, being locked out of content sucks even harder. Were it another game, I'd just shrug it off, but I actually like the Warhammer universe and am looking forward to experience part of it.

This'll be the first MMO I play since my (brief) romp in WoW three years ago. Somebody hold me.

[mven]

I am playing on an open server in the hopes that they will eventually alter the chicken mechanic to make more sense for the ruleset. Really you don't have to worry about 40s ganking you until you are in your 20s but even then it wouldn't be much of a fight. There is about a 20 level float for the areas that are really "open" for you. The biggest problem with the "open" servers is the chicken mechanic moreso than the ganking imo.

On the gear thing maybe it's just the swordmaster (though I have read some marauders bitching about the same thing on gwj) but my renown gear is terrible and has a lot of stats that might be neat for a random build (like willpower) but don't really fit well with a tank archtype. For instance I would think a pretty "normal" swordmaster would focus heavily on things like strength, toughness, and wounds for damage output, damage mitigation, and hp. Instead all of the renown gear has like zero wounds, minor amounts of toughness and seems to focus mostly on weaponskill, strength, and willpower. I have built my gear around toughness and wounds and I probably have 100-200 more toughness and 200 more wounds than someone in pure renown gear. That's over 2000 hp difference. The class sets from PvE (i.e. bloodlord) look like WoW tier 0 trash and have all sorts of stupid stats. Hopefully there will be more options in the higher end renown gear I dunno.

[Darthus]

With how shoddy the mechanisms on open servers are, I'll probably be rolling on a core RP server as well. While not being able to attack (or be attacked by) a player I see will suck, being locked out of content sucks even harder. Were it another game, I'd just shrug it off, but I actually like the Warhammer universe and am looking forward to experience part of it.

This'll be the first MMO I play since my (brief) romp in WoW three years ago. Somebody hold me.

If you do roll on core RP, come to Ostermark Order. I'm Darthus on there of course.

And so far I have never seen a destruction player I couldn't attack, just because of the way the maps are set up, pretty much the only place you'll see them is in the contested areas.

I'm not sure if it keeps up that way in the future.

[bonedead]

Ahh, Jil the hardcore wonders about phatter phats.

lulllulllull

[Giiizmo]

If you do roll on core RP, come to Ostermark Order. I'm Darthus on there of course.

And so far I have never seen a destruction player I couldn't attack, just because of the way the maps are set up, pretty much the only place you'll see them is in the contested areas.

I'm not sure if it keeps up that way in the future.

I would if I could but, as you know, Mythic decided to segregate the players based upon which continent they play. Getting my hands on a US copy was too much of a hassle so I ordered one from a UK retailer. Besides, I had the displeasure of playing on US everquest servers for years and the difference in time zones were a killer, especially when it came to attending raids. Guess I'll be playing with the Brits to avoid the Frenchies. =p

I was actually considering playing on open RP but after reading a few threads which explained how the chicken mechanism locked you out of content and hearing how much Mythic was adamant about keeping their precious anti-griefing rules intact, I figured I'd just bite the bullet and roll on core. It's pretty weird how much I'm attracted to the open ruleset, even though I plan on rolling either rune priest or shaman. Call me a masochist.

[mven]

BD I don't care about "phatter" loots so much as loot that makes sense for my character. If I am playing a tank I want to be able to take a severe beating I don't give a fuck about the whole "rogues in plate" approach.

Giiizmo it's not that masochistic really 1v1 healers are not all that bad at PvP. The only thing you really have to worry about is melee dps the other classes you should be able to take for the most part once you get in a few levels. The only class that can kick my ass that isn't a healer is a black orc. Every other class I can take 1v1. I don't think any of you like PvE all that much but if you do a lot or just want a class to do PQs with and fuckoff as an alt I think the SM is probably the best solo PvE class in the game. Though I would gladly trade that for more group utility and a bit more sensibly laid out attacks for my combat mechanic. *shrug*

Darthus, to really notice the difference between an Open and Core server you would have to run over into their non-contested area and kill them where they are questing. Really though it's like playing on a WoW PvE server vs a PvP server. There is really not all that much difference. The being locked out of content thing is really only annoying if you want to go back and finish out every single ToK unlock. I have no other need for going back to t1-2 and all of that can probably be done by just having a level 20 run me through anything I wanted to pick up. So not that stressed about it. I am hoping they eventually change it so that there has to be some sort of actual PvP involved for the chickening but oh well will see.

[bonedead]

You care about phatter phats and you know it! I just want to craft them.

[mven]

Thank god the crafting in Warhammer is just short of useless. What happened to your metaspace masturbation?

[bonedead]

Well it required motivation and the will to learn.

[Giiizmo]

I read that some high-end dungeons were put in low level zones. People on open servers are effectively being locked out of this content because of the chicken mechanism in its current implementation, which makes me wonder why would Mythic be so against changing or modifying that shitty rule.

[Darthus]

You're only chickened if you (or someone interacting with you) is flagged for RvR. At least that's my understanding. So you should be able to go back to a lower level area and do those dungeons as long as you're not trying to kill people along the way. =)

[bonedead]

Darthus I bet my Witch Elf could beat your Witch Hunter. Honkey